Hello and welcome to episode two
of our Specialist Learning Disability Service podcast.
, it is Jenna Messenger,
specialist Learning Disability Nurse on
this is Your Journey.
Really excited today. , Dr.
Paula Levitt, our principal clinical psychologist
and joint clinical lead
for our specialist learning disability service has kindly
come, agreed to come onto the podcast today.
And the reason why I'm excited is I really wanted
to spend some time with Paula
thinking about emotional development, especially
for the young people and that we work with
and thinking about how can we become more aware of the role
of emotional development and why it's important.
It's something I'm, I'm really passionate about.
I'm really looking forward to delving in with Paula
and hearing how we can all support children
and young people's emotional development with
a learning disability.
Firstly, Paula, it'd be really great
to hear a little bit about what your role is
as a joint clinical lead.
Bev kindly shared some of, , that with us in her,
, first episode, but it'd be wonderful to hear how you
See your role and What we do
Please.
, as a clinic, as a clinical lead, ,
it's obviously supporting as psychologist with
within our pathway.
, it's also get that clinical governance
and developing our pathways together.
Mm-hmm. And, and making sure that we access, ,
interventions and assessments that are project
for children with low disability.
'cause as, , not great swat of research out there,
but it's making sure that we can access ones that are,
are more, most suitable for our children
and to get the best outcome for them. Thank you.
And if we are thinking of as emotional development for
children with a learning disability,
I'm thinking specifically for moderate to severe
to profound young people who access our service.
In your own words, how would you describe what is emotional
Development? ,
emotional development for me,
it sits along the side someone's chronological age
development and then their cognitive development.
Mm-hmm. And it, the children we work
with will have limitations
and challenges in their cognitive development.
And there's, there's models out there
that talk about when that happens.
Usually the children's level of emotional development hasn't
progressed at the same rate as their cognitive development.
, the model out there talks about desynchrony
of development, and that's specifically saying that
that children with learning disability,
the autism developmental needs,
their emotional development is the last thing
to develop longside some of the more practical, , ,
areas of development.
And that's the bit we, we do to focus on in terms
of supporting them with catch up. And what,
Why would you say it's important,
our emotions are important, support them, you said,
to support that catch up?
I suppose the bit for me is the children that we work
with, Jenna often don't even to have some language.
I don't necessarily have the voice to be able to put into words
where their emotional development is or how they're feeling
or expressing their, , their level of need
and expressing their anxiety or distress.
And what we see is, as, ,
what we see is them expressing their distress
if their emotional needs haven't been met to their behavior.
And I think, , there's a, a, a move for a, a long time now
to think less about behavior in terms of what we see
and more about what's going on underneath
for the children that we work with.
, that their emotional world is considered.
And again, for a long time now,
there's been discussions about, , the inner world
of a person with a learning disability is as important
as, as the rest of us who don't have young disability
that our inner world can be understood and explored.
, and, and that's what I think the emotional,
developmental, , models that we are talking about more
and more thankfully, , at this stage are coming
to the forefront for us. How did you
Become first aware?
You talk you are absolutely, in my opinion, ,
that behaviors can present on the surface.
that's what we can see.
And , you said, it can be an emotional
development reason that's communicated through.
Have you always been of that thought
or was things in your career showed you emotional
development needs that space
and you said, appreciate it's certainly
got more gravitation.
I've got a very clear memory, , back along
before I moved to Deon.
Mm-hmm. And I came across another clinical psychologist
who works in adult services,
and we were talking about a young person who was moved
between children's to other services.
Mm-hmm. And we were talking about his, ,
emotional developments.
And this particular psychologist made me aware
of an approach by, , Dr.
Pat Frankish, who's a clinical psychologist
and she has been promoting for many, many, many years now,
, the idea of disability psychotherapy
and developed an assessment, an observational assessment,
and that helps us consider where
a person's emotional development was
at from that point.
It's, for me, that was a bit of a, a, ,
a turning point instead focusing on behavior
and fixing behavior.
It's more about understanding the person's emotional
expression through that behavior.
And that's driven my career
to towards thinking about emotional development as opposed
to a surface behavior. We see
Definitely, I Know Dr.
Per frank talks of a trauma informed model,
and when we, and emotional development,
when we talk a trauma and thinking for parents
and carers, that can be really difficult
because trauma feels quite a big word and quite loaded.
How would you describe trauma that, , if you are working
with someone to explain what, what could it mean?
you are , it can be quite a scary word
to use in children with disability
and it makes parents care is worried about it.
Mm-hmm. I think first of all, understand the trauma, ,
in the lots of different things to different people.
first of all, it's a threat to, ,
the person either physically or psychologically.
And secondly there the phrase that I quite
to use at moment Big Ts and ties.
Yeah. And the big Ts are the big traumas
that we automatically go to and think about.
PS three. Yes. Little ties are some of those small events,
, that might happen to someone, , might have
as a baby you might have fallen off a chair
and , yeah, you might have, , ,
, bump into some a little accident
or something that, or you might have, ,
got lost in the shopping center.
Yeah. Yeah. And the, the, the idea of reason is
that there are different events that all
of us will interpret differently in
terms of the level of threats.
what might be a look of tea for one person, ,
might turn into a big tea for another person.
It's about that individual's way of, ,
understanding the world
and how safe they are within the world.
rather than think of,
of the trauma informed me at big massive trauma,
something very scary has happened.
It's, it's, it's understanding my perspective from ,
understanding model.
It's understanding that having a disability in itself can
make things harder for it's harder for people.
Yeah. , and having learning disability comes, ,
comes with it some vulnerabilities.
it's being able to understand that helping somebody, ,
feel safe, feel secure in student in themselves is
one of the important things that we need
to make sure is a matter of course their child
and an adult with a learning disability.
I think what I took away from that,
it didn't feel judgmental.
And I wonder for parents
and carers, when we talk a trauma,
it can absorb that responsibility.
It's my fault I didn't come eye on the child.
you said, in the supermarket as a parent
or carer, it can be easily consumed.
Is that what you're saying? It isn't judgmental
and we all individually interpret it, absolutely.
It's how we interpret it, how we feel it. Yeah.
But also it feels that there is consideration
to support, to be able to help with it,
but it's calling it out saying it.
I think for me, you can kinda
hit nail on the head there.
generally, when I've talked about the,
this approach, the parents,
they haven't felt it was judgmental.
They, they've, they've seen it as a Oh, . Yeah.
They, my child is younger
emotionally than they're chronological.
And that even at their cognitive age,
there have been a couple of occasions when,
when it's been really hard for a parent to hear that,
, and , there's lots of reasons for that.
Yeah. I think it is about stepping away from the, , ,
blame culture and approaching the family
and the, the adult unit around the child, the systems
around the child, , to have them think about where
that child's at and what they can do to meet that,
that child at their level.
Definitely. I was thinking when you were talking the
chronological age of a young person, we can perceive them
to be that their emotional age is close to
that chronological age,
but if it isn't, that must be really difficult for them.
But also, you said, we could interpret it differently
when emotionally when we're younger,
we haven't got those communication skills
and maybe that ability to regulate in the same way.
Mm-hmm. Thinking about the regulation part,
could you explain co-regulation?
when I was saying then that when we are younger,
thinking, I'm thinking around the toddler stages,
I'd say that's two to three, where emotionally
little ones find that really difficult.
the emotions seem quite, they can be quite bigger
and not manageable.
And that I'm thinking of our young people who are older,
if they're 15, 16,
but they're emotionally presenting younger,
How would You think on
co-regulation, what does that work mean?
Co-regulation to me is something we do get ,
done look for children and we do this quite intuitively.
, , when a little one is, is not able to
regulate their emotional state
and we will get down to that level, we'll kind
of let them know that we're here, we'll let them kind
of work through that big emotional Yes.
And set feelings that they're expressing
and let them know that it's that they've got them
and that they are being emotionally helped.
And we do that for our, don't we. Mm-hmm.
And I guess this model talks about, , co-regulation
and attunement for adults, whether it's parents
or you can have other family members or, , staff at school
or people who are supporting with that.
It's using those, that skillset that we generally have.
Most of us have that skillset, not everybody,
but most of us have that skillset to co-regulate.
And rather than jumping into the behavior that kind
of going back to basics
with the achievement, the coagulation.
that person can be supported to work
through the emotional bit that the work they, ,
dealing with before we go into problem solving.
, understand safety is important,
but it's, it's making sure somebody understands
that they are emotional held,
the adult then become responsible, , for showing
they're emotionally available for that person.
, , I guess we know things pace, which,
which helps us think about, , coating children
who might had care experiences using that,
that type of skill set.
, to help
that child young person understand
that they're safe, that they're held.
, that's my understanding of care reflection,
that's my own function in terms of the,
the model emotional development that we don't jump up.
Don't jump ahead and expect someone to follow the rules
and manage their own behavior.
'cause their behavior is communicating their emotional
distress, but don't, they haven't yet been able to,
to master it's a skill that they haven't mastered.
They haven't reached that developmental stage yet.
And then is that safety you are talking about?
And I'm thinking that again, when you are younger, you need
to feel safe and also that availability
and it felt validation too.
you're really seeing and hearing that person.
And you pointed a really good point there about also you are
thoughtful of safety.
if a person is in such a heightened level of distress,
it's about pitching.
we want to try and get in there before then.
See we see your struggling usually the
toddlers, we can sometimes see a buildup always,
but sometimes we can see it.
Yeah. I guess terms of physical safety
and psychological safety, yes.
It's balancing out what we need to do.
If there's physical safety risks, then obviously
that's would be priority.
Yes. I, and then we can go into the psychological safety
and I was thinking when you talk
Co-regulation to be able to
support someone's emotions who might be really big,
really not able to be contained.
And I imagine you've got to think about your own,
how am I emotionally feeling and having that awareness
because I imagine we can pass that on.
if we come more stressed, then
that persons their feel that
and that's going to emotionally lift them up
because they're not in a place
where they can emotionally manage themselves.
Absolutely. Again, it takes me back to
what we do with little ones.
almost our, , tone of voice
and our body meets them
at the level that they're at.
And, and then as we bring our voice down,
the referencing little ones calm down as well.
And I guess it's using some of those, , nonverbal skills
that we have micro skills to, to help us regulate.
We do have to think about, , young people that we work
with might not be able to read nonverbal skills, ,
or communication.
it's, it's thinking what that young, that person in front
of us, what's, what their needs are and meet them
and level go at
and meet them, , the communication
that they need. What do
You think the difference is when we shift our mindset,
when we start thinking about the emotional developmental
needs and you said, meeting that young person,
and I appreciate that we are talking generally here,
but what difference do you think in your experience it makes
when you can see, you said, where parents, carers,
transport staff in schools, enablers, whole range
of people start going, I see where you are
and emotionally meeting. for
Me it's strength a relationship, ?
Compared to if you meet somebody at
where their behavior is then, ,
I, I guess or you, if you see the behavior, ,
and people aren't the child responding
to behavioral strategies, then disconnect there and,
and less of a kind
of satisfaction in relationship if you focus on a relational
approach, which is another word,
what we're talking about here.
meeting the person where they're at it, it has potential
to strengthen the relationships.
And , if you think about school staff
and taxi transport staff you mentioned ,
if you develop a relationship through the that type
of skill, you're gonna get more
satisfaction in that relationship.
You're gonna see progress in your relationship,
you're gonna feel important to that young person.
, and has that two way effects of,
, relationship feels
it would be quite rewarding.
That relationship I imagine is kind
of fundamental is the young person being able to trust.
And I imagine that has to be built over time.
And you can do that by, if you are able to
see whether emotionally, ,
and I suppose I'm thinking when you said about safety,
thinking about the environment,
how do we create a feeling of safety?
going back to the trust,
I think you are there if a young person
thinks, oh, they've got me.
Yeah, they know how to support me.
Yeah, maybe not even cognitive think that,
but they have this sense of I'm held and contained here
and yeah, you've got me.
Then they've done that will naturally build the trust up
and that will build the relationship up.
And I guess the idea is they might not need
to use their behaviors in the same way
because they are getting their emotion needs met,
they're being emotionally held by that adult that's safe,
emotionally available person.
, the idea is
that we focus on building the relationship
and, , the trust, ,
and the sense of safety that reduces the need, ,
to display behaviors of that distress.
You Thinking of parents and carers
and thinking that I mentioned earlier about
to offer a co-regulation and attunement, you need to look
after yourselves.
wondered, is there things that can help
A parent or carer To be able to create
Space for themself? I know we talk
A lot these days, a
Lot of buzzword around mindfulness, but that can feel,
I'm going to back to, , the trauma informed
care ideally you've spoken about
and that, one the key factors there if
to deliver trauma informed care approach
if you , you do have to have the lens
of your own, , emotional being
and wellbeing, , in order to provide
that emotional availability to somebody else.
that one part of that question is asked, it's important
to be able to have level of, ,
what's the word?
Regulation, emotional
Awareness.
Yep. . , , yeah, parents obviously do need to kind
of have an awareness of their own emotional state
because quite often that can mean, , if,
if they're distressed
and that can transfer to other people
around maybe the young person.
I think the other bit that we know in terms
of parent wellbeing is the additional impact of parent
of a child with D complex needs.
Mm-hmm. , one of our colleagues, , does, ,
has, has, ,
has, , started a workshop parents,
and one of the activities that she does
is something called the job description
and asks the parent
to have a think about all the additional tasks
that they're faced with as a parent of a child
with on disability or, or complex and additional needs.
And it helps that parents sit back
and look, , about the additional demands
that are placed on them in order for them to go,
I'm doing a really good job.
I'm working really hard, I'm supporting, advocating for
my child, and I'm having to navigate the complex system
of the same worlds, which we know is complex
and there's lots of elements to it that's quite,
quite a burden for families to, to work through in terms
of all the forms to fill in and,
and the systems to navigate.
, and the additional professionals that come in,
I said, we come in
and ask you all these questions about your child,
but of you to support, help,
but it's, it's additional work for parents
and families to, to, to deal with.
it's having people that knowledge,
, working extra hard as a parent.
, and it's important to do a bit of
self care or another phrase, essential maintenance, looking
after yourself and making know.
Often families will say, I don't have time
because that they are having to cope with additional tasks.
, but for me it's important for them to, ,
have some of that, that time for themselves they can
maintain their own wellbeing, maintain their own resilience,
, one of you to being able to do all these tasks
that we're asking you to do.
if, if, , we're asking a parent to
do additional achievements to their child
because the child has communication problems,
has a learning disability
and ask them to do more.
it's having them think about,
I was thinking also we need to talk then
that if your child
or young person's younger
that I imagine emotionally they're gonna
need that more support.
that might bring some challenges to it.
, because you said,
you are gonna be increasing your emotional availability,
your attunement,
that's gonna take a little bit more energy
from yourself too.
That importance Of looking after yourself sounds really
Key With that understanding
and that support around the young person.
Is there that hope for parents
and carers that emotional development can grow?
Do you think that it can develop then
through the emotional development stages?
at Frankie's model would say that yes,
there is always potential, , for chant to move on
to the next stage Yes.
, of emotional development and it, it does take time.
it's, it's, I guess it's not one
of those interventions successions
and this is next door make better.
This is about, , all the adults around that child.
We now to provide that level of support
and emotional availability and, , Mr.
Child has a low disability, that means it takes longer
for them to take in that emotional availability.
there's almost a barrier in,
in the disability itself for them
to take that information in.
, , yeah, it's not a quick process. Yes.
, but certainly we're able to understand where
that child's level of need is in terms
of emotional development.
If we're meeting them at to high level, ,
that then we're putting higher expectations than their level
of need is, then they're, they're not getting it met.
If we're putting it to low level,
then we're not stretching and challenging them.
it's, it is, it is about being able to understand
where they're at now and understand that they,
and ,
and the other bit I think is probably helpful
if a child goes to an experience of stress
or, , we know the situation,
the bunch children move class clues for example,
or they have a change of important person in their life, ,
that can make them feel a little bit more insecure.
Yes. And at that point, we need
to look at pursuing a bit more of that emotional support of
that emotional availability
until the relationship is reestablished.
think every year we hear from parents about
how well they are about a child moving into a different
community class group or, or different class teacher
or to the teaching assistant
or different, , escort for transport.
And , every year we see that eventually if
that relationship is built on
and developed, then the child's anxiety settles
when they've made that good
trusting emotionally available relationship.
it, yeah, back to the relational approach being key.
And I think also when you're talking, I'm thinking
for parents and carers and families that change
and transition for themself emotionally
is an uncertain time.
And for human beings relationships are really important,
you said, being able to trust.
Mm-hmm. Do you think that endings,
because we can't not have endings in our life, be it
with, , the people you said,
we form that relationship.
Where do you think that ending is really important for
that we make endings?
Don't know if it's positive is the word,
but an understanding.
Yeah, we do. Yeah, I do.
, I think it's important to, to, ,
make it really clear when it's an ending.
Yeah. , particularly if some
of our children haven't developed theory of mind yet.
, , they might think, well,
what's that person got?
, I know you, you are talking about grief related
podcast Yeah.
About grief and loss. Mm-hmm.
I think it's really important for the child to
have a very clear explanation of what's happening Mm.
, and, and what they can expect.
endings in terms of moving classes Yes.
The teacher's still in the actual school building
in their classroom.
Yeah. And, , there's a transfer of, , attachment
from you personally, all class two, another,
another class teacher that takes time, , that takes
building as we know, building a relationship takes time
and, , patience and trust.
yeah, I think endings, ,
sometimes it's helpful to be visual.
I remember doing a piece of work many, many years ago
where Map who I knew was gonna struggle with an ending
and, , I had support from a supervisor who was a business
as psychologist.
And we talked about
using something very visual.
we had a little activity at the end of each
of our therapy session that,
and we paid, decorated the little jar
and I had a bag of marbles
and each day, each session we'll take one
of the marbles outta the bag and put it into the jar.
And then the end of our final session, all
of the models were in the jar
and the jar was decorated for him to take away.
Wow. And that was really a,
to give him a physical representation of the number
of sessions we were going to have
because it took a long term piece work
did many, many years ago.
, the, it's it's, , also that, ,
trans helping, , process the transition
and the ending and , the actual
jar was a representation of all of the work that we did.
each paper was a representation of the sessions
that we had and the jar was a representation, representation
of the work as a whole.
And I've used that many,
many times since in different forms.
Maybe not Jar and Pebbles
because it might not work for different young people,
but I think having a really clear process, ,
towards ending because endings
and relationships aren't concrete things
that it's quite an abstract idea, isn't it?
Quite an abstract concept. making things as concrete
as possible for our young people is helpful.
, and if they can understand that concept
and this represents this, , that can be quite helpful.
Now I was thinking also, do you think there's a space
to allow for the emotions that may come up
but might come through behavior?
you said, you can do the visual concrete
that transferred.
you said, you've got something physical,
but you might find our young people might show some
distress, some anxiety, some trepidation
because you said, something's come to an end
and we've done the work visually.
We've done, you said, something maybe physical. Mm-hmm.
But do you think there's a, a space
where the emotions may still come up?
Absolutely. Absolutely.
It's, it is totally normal for, , for all of us
to process endings and loss in different ways.
, and,
and being able to observe, I see something in a session
or in the class
or at home, , I wonder if,
I wonder if this is what's happening for them.
One person can tell us very clearly if, if you are or wrong.
Yes. There's nothing wrong with hypothesizing.
I wonder if this is sound feeling,
I wonder if this is what's going on
for you. Tell me if I'm wrong.
Yeah. Or
Yeah, because you're not telling
what you are doing is you are doing an outward thought.
I wonder. you're yeah.
You're putting it out there for
Can It help also if you see,
I think I'm seeing you are frowning your
eyebrows, come close together or you
and describing what you are seeing.
And you said, wondering.
you're not saying I think you are feeling,
you're not assuming, but you're going
on two things.
I think you're about describing facial expressions
or bodily movements.
Mm-hmm. And saying, I'm wondering if
that means a particular feeling.
It's also important
'cause some of our young people are quite compliant.
, or say yes and agree.
, it's, it's, it's a mixture if you transcribe
the outward demeanor
or someone to check if that fits
with their internal feelings.
'cause the outside doesn't always fit with the inside.
We've all been there before, I know's on the inside,
but picture calm and proposal on the outside.
Yeah. , it's not assuming that what's on the
outside is, is what they're feeling, but check.
, I guess the other bit is whether our young people are
able to enact with, ,
physiological feelings of emotion.
that physiological bit of emotion
and sometimes, , we very close.
think about when you are really, really excited or you
or you have adrenaline 'cause you're quite
anxious about something
and you can physically feel a bit similar
if you haven't got a, a, ,
kinda well developed sense of interception.
those feeling that are inside your body be,
you might not be able to tell a difference
between one emotion she knew have an issue.
that, that's a tricky one,
but always worth asking, , a young person,
I, i almost seeing this.
. I wanted
To go back, you talked when you did
The jar of,
I'm sorry if it's pebbles or muscles,
and I was thinking about that emotional development where
a little one can move to something
that might be quite special for them.
be that a teddy bear, be it a toy.
And that sometimes is really important to have with there.
think you touching on the idea
of trans transitional objects.
Yes. If you could explain transitional objects. Yeah.
And what I'm trying to say is where yeah,
it comes important to them.
And I know for some of the pets care, I talk to,
they sometimes need a, if they're going somewhere
that they put them somewhere safe
or there's a worry if they lose it.
But make me think about sometimes
that can help when women are emotionally moving from a
person to a person having something.
transitional objects, again, we
standards in the context of our little children.
Yes. , they might have a blankie
or a teddy that they've had from,
but when we very, very young, , have some particular smell
and particular physical feeling and it gives them comfort
and it's, it's called a transitional object
because, , our,
our main object is our primary carer
and transitional objective is someone
that helps us move from one
well primary care to another primary care.
, , transitional objects then start to, ,
play a, a place when children go to nursery
or to granny's for first overnight.
Mm-hmm. parents can have their first kinda night out
by themselves or day out themselves or what have you.
, transitional objects one of a representation of
that safety and security from their primary carer.
And we, we do see a lot of that.
And I guess we see more of that with our children. Yes.
Have women disability mm-hmm.
And all other developmental conditions.
We see a lot of that because there's a strong likelihood the
emotional development is much, much younger.
, , if they're much younger
and emotional development, they're still not quite ready
to detach.
when we talk about attachment child, ,
lots of relationship with a primary carer
and then a secondary carer
and then is able to then start to attach to other people.
And that traditionally happens in newer developmentally, ,
developing children only about the time when they are able
to walk and talk
and go off to, , nursery in private school.
that will generally, we have at the same time,
I guess our children not necessarily be walking,
might not necessarily be talking,
might not have mastered some
of those independent skills Toyota addressing.
, because they have some developmental delays.
, they, their ,
the development is limited
alongside of emotional development.
I dunno if that's making sense generally in terms of mm-hmm.
The increased likelihood of a transitional object being used
is alongside, , their emotional development. And,
Sorry, I talked over again.
I'm terrible for doing that.
Sorry Paul, I'll let you finish.
I was thinking what comes across to me is that
it is part of the normal emotional development stages is
that object of trans, , transition.
It's important to have but it might come later.
we might see it in the children we support when they're
older because they're moving through that stage.
But it made also
Yeah. Much slower.
It made me wonder for some people they might find
that difficult for maybe an older younger person
to be having that need for maybe a toy or something
because they're seeing, well you are 15 now
you don't need it. Mm-hmm.
What do you Think when I say that?
, 'cause again, if we are thinking emotionally younger
and they need it, where does that sit
and how they may be perceived
because you are 15 now, yeah.
You shouldn't need it, but emotionally
Do need it because I'm still at that stage.
, yeah, I guess, I guess ,
it's the same principle, isn't it?
It's if it's helping that person, that young person feel
that they are taking part of their safe base from home
into a situation that makes ' feel less secure, well
that's gonna be helpful for them to manage that, ,
transition to different environment.
, I would say that if that's the case
as well, we, it might be helpful to look at
where are the safe relationships in that environment.
, , the relational approach in
that environment could be worked on.
. Yeah. Then the other thing to think about is, ,
you might see different types of transition objects
that might be a bit harder
and a bit more bit less that cuddly
and a bit more that special interest maybe.
. , but it does help, again, might still help
that person feel secure
because it is a predictable object and it doesn't change.
I think that's the thing about, , transitional objects
that they're, they're quite predictable.
you think about blanket, it has a part smell, ,
has the feel and that's consistent
and that consistency is reassuring.
Yeah.
And I was thinking transition are a time
where you haven't got those consistency
and that safety is quite an open sphere
where it doesn't feel safe
and it doesn't always feel content,
you're going through change.
yeah, having something that helps you feel safe
emotionally and you said,
engaging in the sense it might help you feel a bit
Safer. Yeah. It's
attached there isn't it?
It helps if someone ,
I was also thinking you said about those
relationships and being safe.
Is it also we need to take, when you talked theory of mind,
when knowing if someone's coming back
or not, if we're working
with a young person who's emotionally younger, is it trying
to hold in our mind if I nip to the toilet now
to let them know that I've left?
Who is that person? Because without, I imagine
that could be a bit worrying if I'm not able to emotionally
be contained and I'm relying on my person
who I connect with.
two sides to that question again. Mm-hmm.
One is that yes, if you haven't got fear of mind
and you are person steps outta the room,
you don when they're coming back, you can't,
you can't imagine where they're at.
Got you. , and then if the other side
of the coin is if you, you do this regular reliably instead
of hopping out,
but Jenna's here, Jenna's going to be your third person,
I'm popping out, I'll be 10 minutes and I'm back.
And then after 10 minutes you come back
and say, Hey, I'm back.
I can pick up from Jenna now.
And that sounds a number,
but that increases trust
and predictability, which increases feelings of security
and , versus still
emotionally available to you. Because
I was thinking when we, you talk
of the developmental milestones going
through about nine months, we see babies become that aware
of strangers and that , you are not my safe person.
I'm thinking for our young people, you said,
if we don't know where they've gone,
it can feel quite scary for them.
And then suddenly if you don't know this person
who may come in and look
after you, that's gonna be really quite,
it could be quite scary.
again, that relationship I'm hearing is really important
And we have that innate fear, don't we?
Of what strange, , and unfamiliar to us. Yes.
And that's babies natural defense mechanism.
Yeah. I don't know you,
I'm not gonna let you pick me up and cuddle me.
And that's, that's, , a natural protective factor.
Same thing with, , we see lots of food difficulties
with little ones that, ,
when they can reach back the neophobic phase, et cetera.
It's a time when , a young person, a little person
is trying to work out for themselves
what's, what's next done.
Because all that, all that nine on stage, ,
that primary care does everything,
everything for the, for the baby.
, and then that's the whole point of I guess
of developmental stages
that this is when the child becomes more aware,
starts testing out in different ways,
particularly when they get to do
And then imagine, you said,
with the emotional development.
And it can take longer to move through a stage that
for parents
and carers maybe where their child is mirroring
that toddler stage where they might be experiencing
what we've described in toddler terms at tantrum.
I know we'd be more thoughtful around
that language when we're working with our young people,
but I imagine that can be quite hard stage where,
you said, asserting the independent taking risks
but not able to keep safe all the time.
it's quite a lot there
to navigate in those emotional development stages.
I think you said earlier does,
a young person might have had
16 years in the planet.
Yeah. it has to have, they have had life experiences,
but the learning ability has, has limited, , the learning
that they can take from some learning experiences.
, and the emotional per mental stage may still be
at a much younger age.
, yeah, that, that,
that's the challenge I guess in terms of understanding,
still need to meet that person's level
of emotional development
and we can do it, we can do that, , in, in kind
of creative ways it fits with the chronological age
but still meets their emotional age
and stage of development.
And, and I think that's the, the key bit there that, ,
meeting their emotional state development is the bit
that's gonna help them learn to develop relationships build.
move on to the next stage. I
Really appreciate your time Paula
and I thinking to bring it to your close,
but I would your thoughts for parents
and carers when we think of emotional development.
What would your message be to them from today's podcast
episode in emotional development?
what would your Yeah,
I suppose your thoughts would be,
is it keeping it in mind maybe hopefully today we phrased an
awareness that behaviors absolutely are there,
but could there be where are they emotionally sitting?
I think there's a phrase, ,
called behaviors of stress.
Yes. And I think for me that's key in terms
of understanding that yeah, you are having to deal with the,
the surface behaviors,
but holding mind the behavior might be, ,
because of emotional needs.
I think for parents
and carers in particular, , , tune into yourself
as well and be kind to yourself.
, because what we're asking people to consider
and think about is a lot is letting them
to think about another layer.
, and it could be quite hard for, for some people
to hear this and their child is younger emotionally.
, other parents might think, oh, phew, someone said it.
Yes, that's what I felt all wrong.
, I guess it depends where you are working from
that journey of understanding your child
and understanding where they're at
and yeah, hopefully they come along
to our service at any point in the future they'll understand
that's one of the principles that we,
we have high value
that we understand the child's needs holistically.
, and that's our need to help people
around their child understand their
child as well as they do. Absolutely.
And I was thinking, we also think of the children
and young people and my thoughts are,
what I hope they would take away is there's a real
lens you've shown in respect of it can be distress.
the behaviors may be quite outward
and visible to see in their communications
and where they are emotion they,
but also it may be think that some
of our young people may not show it.
you've highlighted too that we see those young people who
may mask how they are,
but emotionally we still need to consider if they're not
outward there where we can see
that the stress doesn't mean emotionally
we shouldn't be thinking.
And I wonder for them,
I think use the word masking is quite important, ,
and I would say that our parents, the ones
that usually see when the masking out, which was, ,
because we ask our young people, they, they have a,
, a diagnostic of autism in addition
to a low disability.
We ask our young people to go into these big environments at
schools or , clubs, et cetera,
and , tend
different settings.
And , , we do see lots of young people , ,
and then when they go home to their safe base,
their primary care to their loved ones,
then they let it all out.
And yeah, we understand that, that
parents care who can see that.
, yeah. And
Finally, we to think as professionals.
we've thought about some of the people who are
in our young people's lives.
What would you hope they would take away if it's the first
time, maybe they thought of emotional development
or they're quite experienced,
but what would you to leave it
for professionals to kind
of think about emotional development?
, I think, I think similarly that, ,
your relationship with the children that you work with is,
is important
and part of the, the building blocks for them of,
of developing their, , emotional resilience in the world
and emotional determinants
and you, yeah, I think
have a think about emotional approach,
probably somebody in your organization
and will understand how important that is.
And yeah, advocate for that would be my hope.
Having, having thought about emotional development.
, yeah. And
I think I'd to add,
when you said about the relational, it's also
that trauma informed approach, changing the way we see
and hear and receive trauma
and how can we be thoughtful about the young
person's story that they've had, but also family
and carers too.
And you said, also considering
of the people maybe working with them too, changing
that real holistic, thoughtful approach, hearing
and understanding, validating
as you've talked throughout about where someone's at.
I think . And I guess if you're seeing a child into
stress, it's, it's hard to see.
It's hard to see. whether you are parent
or a professional, ,
could you come after yourself?
Very true. Very true.
Yeah. Witness that distress.
Thank you. Thank you much, Paula, for giving your time.
And yeah, I think we've really
considered emotional development.
Talked about the word trauma, which I'm really pleased
that we've been able to have that conversation
and think about yeah, what's, what's the behavior.
But always consider emotionally where you are.
And you said, looking after yourself too is
really, really important.
Thank you much having mate. Thank you.